MyDD :: A Slippery Slope

A Slippery Slope

by Newcomer, Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:07:42 PM EST

I have tried - quite unsuccessfully - to make the point here that those who defend HRCs incessant use of Republican talking points (most poignantly in the last few days) are either naive or disingenuous. No matter - the blinders are on here at MyDD and my only job is to jump in front of that bus every now and then and take a few shots. I am sure this diary will yield no less a result.

But I think that HRC has perhaps played her latest political game for a little too long. It reminds me of the SNL skits of the late 90s early 2000s...after the first 3 mins. they just werent funny anymore.

The latest evidence comes from her botched attempt to deal another blow to Obama during her address to the Alliance for American Manufacturing.

One would assume that this is a group that is somehow offended by Obama's honest, truthful assessment of economically-distressed voters (not just Obama's - but the majority of Dems, including Hillary, Bill, Carville, Webb, and I am sure others).

Well maybe not.

MSNBC First Read has the story. When democrats are getting booed by workers - one has to pause and wonder why? I hope this will be the sign HRC needed to return to her focus on issues.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/14/888068.aspx

Before you blame MSNBC for being pro-Obama...watch and listen for yourself to the video - linked here:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4 /14/12422/9915/877/495437

By the way - this is not the only embarassing story that illustrates why HRC is constantly on the wrong side of the fence. Apparently, a similar 'response' caused plans to change in NC. I wonder where all those bumper stickers are?

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2 008/04/12/882730.aspx

Do they not remember that this is a DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY and that most of the people listening are democrats. Whether you like it or not: this is a democratic party talking point.

Jim Webb
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/ feature.html?id=110009246

James Carville
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/040 8/9323.html
(and he has repeated this recently)

Bill Clinton
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/13 /bill-clinton-flashback-al_n_96433.html

Hillary Clinton
I am willing to bet that HRC has made similar characterizations about the relationship between the economy, social issues, and voting. I am sure its out there..... if you find it, put it in the comments for me. :)

Whether it is elitist or not - it is an odd characteristic of elections that people will vote against their own economic interests in favor of social issues, if they feel the govt has forgotten them.

Tags: clinton, obama, bitter (all tags)

Permalink :: 34 Comments :: Post a Comment

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

Indeed. This may not help Clinton as much as she would like; it may end up hurting her in the long run.

Google and Nexus-Lexis should shed some light.

by NewOaklandDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:16:14 PM EST

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

Of course anything that questions obama is republican..well republicans like everyone else in this world are not completely wrong.

by grego101 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:18:03 PM EST

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

Funny how they hate republicans with a passion but are happy that Obama's independent and republican voters are masking that he has lost the race with regards to DEMOCRATIC PARTY MEMBERS VOTES.

by DTaylor on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:21:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

You should check the stats on Ohio and Texas and read a little about Rush's Operation Chaos before rehashing an older MyDD talking point...the Repub for a Day probably allowed HRC to continue fighting. She has them to thank.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:37:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

My point is that why dont we leave Repub talking points to the Repubs. Hillary has a better Health Care Plan, she has more years in senate, etc. Her insistence on continuing this point may backfire -but for me, it is more important to note that she is being disingenuous. Does it not bother you that McCain and HRC are hand-in-hand here?

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:22:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

Listen when Obama attacks her for being establishment she attacks him for being elitist.

Boo hoo hoo.

Oh noes you can't call my candidate elitist or you are not good enough to be in our party anymore....

Ohhh Noes

You can't use our candidates words against him when he is in San Fransisco because it is totally out of step with PA....

Boo hooo hoo

Obama is what he is.

As America comes to grips with that his odds of being president disappear.

by DTaylor on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:19:31 PM EST

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

"As America comes to grips with that his odds of being president disappear."

You almost sound excited.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:26:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

Indeed Obama is what he is, and he will likely be the Deomcratic nominee, and probably president.

In all honesty, though, I really think that we should run this primary all the way to the finish. It's good that Obama and Clinton deal with negative attacks now, and innoculate their core supporters against typical Republican talking points. Then, whomever comes out with the nomination will be even stronger.

by NewOaklandDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:26:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

I do agree that HRC is doing Obama a favor. Despite the anticipation of his demise and the excitement of that fact (however sad) - he is likely to be the nominee and these will sting less.

But I think we are seeing lemons into lemonade once again and Obama is proving himself a worth adversary (dare I say 'fighter').

I would love to see HRC actually speak philosophically once in a while so we can understand what she thinks - what informs her - it might help her boost her trust numbers.

One may not like what Obama said (or how he said it) but I think he is merely reflecting a long-held belief in the Dem. party. Bottom line: the Repubs are much better at this game than the dems.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:34:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

they aren't Democrats (2.00 / 0)

IMO, this board is used by a lot of republicans who pretend they are Hillary supporters in an attempt to hurt Obama's chances of winning - because Republicans want to face HRC in Nov and fear facing Obama.

Looking at a lot of the anti-Obama diaries and comments, and it is clear that many of these people aren't Democrats.

by Mojo Risen on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:31:15 PM EST

Re: they aren't Democrats (none / 0)

No doubt. But I am not ready to charge someone with not being a democrat. I am actually making a point that this whole controversy is about a very commonly-held democratic talking point relating economic woes to voting habits. What irks me is that HRC chose this to go after...I can understand McCain...

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:36:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: they aren't Democrats (2.00 / 1)

It's completely true. Gore and Kerry were the epitome of wooden, out-of-touch elitists who windsurfed, invented the Internet, and voted for things before they voted against them.

Nevermind that they also served ably in the military, in the Senate, and both have long, impressive accomplishments behind them.

Democrats being painted as elite and out-of-touch with the average voter is a fact, not a talking point. Look at 2000 and 2004.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:40:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That argument (none / 0)

is a fallacy. You are assuming that the reason they lost was due to being painted as out of touch. In fact, there were many reasons as to why Gore and Kerry lost. Like for instance, fraud. Just like many HRC supporters here aare assuming that this manufactured controversy is going to cost Obama in the GE. I doubt it.

by SocialDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:28:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That argument (none / 0)

I said that is one one of the reason Gore lost the election, and perception matters in politics. I agree with you. I'm not sure fraud was as much an issue in '04 as it was in '00, though, since the margin was pretty decisive.

I don't know whether this controversy over Obama's comments -- and it isn't manufactured, it is a controversy -- is going to cost Obama the general election, but it certainly can't help.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:33:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That argument (none / 0)

"I said that is one one of the reason Gore lost the election, and perception matters in politics."

Fair enough.

But this is a manufactured controversy. It was created by HRC and John McCain to have something to lob at BO. Most of the people I have talked to (Republicans mostly, I mean hard core right wingers. I live in a rural community) absolutely agree with him and just laugh at HRC and McCain's comments about him being "out of touch".

by SocialDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That argument (none / 0)

"Most of the people I have talked to (Republicans mostly, I mean hard core right wingers. I live in a rural community) absolutely agree with him and just laugh at HRC and McCain's comments about him being "out of touch"."

At least the ones who are fair.

by SocialDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:40:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That argument (none / 0)

I'm glad people in your corner of the world agree with you. I could say that people in my corner of the world agree with me, as well.

This is not a manufactured controversy. A controversy is "a prolonged public dispute, debate, or contention; disputation concerning a matter of opinion."

This is a controversy, and there's nothing manufactured about it. Obama said what he said.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:42:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ugh, you're not getting the point. (none / 0)

I am not disagreeing this is not a controversy. What I am saying is that it is a bullshit controversy that is completely false. It has been exaggerated and parsed to death by HRC and McCain.

by SocialDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:44:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ugh, you're not getting the point. (none / 0)

It's either a controversy or it's not. You can't have it both ways. Either what he said is controversial or it is not. Obama made these statements, and now is suffering the price for them. We'll see the extent of the damage (I'm not even sure what it will be), but it certainly has not been exaggerated and parsed. His full quote is out there in the open.

If you want to believe it is completely false, more power to you.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:47:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Again, missing the point (none / 0)

but I am not even going to try to explain it. I'll just agree to disagree.

by SocialDem on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:57:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

I find this a pretty slippery argument itself. Hillary has not been using 'Republican talking points', whatever they may be.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and like it or not, Hillary, McCain, and the Republicans have their sights set on Obama right now. Should Hillary just roll over and keep her mouth shut, not make her case, simply because Republicans might repeat whatever she has to say about Obama? Of course not.

This is a contest, and all sides can present their cases however they wish. If Obama can't handle the incoming fire, then he should rethink the general election because it will all be much much worse.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:38:44 PM EST

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

You are right...it will be worse once McCain focuses...but you know, McCain is already staying away from Clinton so this has become a bipartisan attack on Obama. When it is Dem on Dem action - the playing field is level...but Dem/Repub on Dem is more difficult.

Believe me - the only one gaining from any of this is John McCain. HRC is making waves but probably wont win the nomination. So what is her motivation?

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:48:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

The nomination contest is not over. Her motivation is the same as that of John McCain and Barack Obama. Judge her for that, judge all of them.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

Exactly the point:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and like it or not, Hillary, McCain, and the Republicans have their sights set on Obama right now.

And in that, Hillary has it completely wrong. John McCain and everything he represents is the enemy, not Barack Obama; but Hillary has been all too willing to play it the other way. That is exactly why Obama supporters ~~hate~~ dislike her tactics. What you have written is an implicit acknowledgment that she is using R talking points against him.

Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo

by rb608 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:59:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (2.00 / 1)

We're arguing in circles then. I'm saying that she should not hold back simply because Republicans are using and will be using these same line of attacks.

Hillary is completely right in offering a critique of the sort of statements that have cost a lot of credibility with Democratic candidates in the past.

This is not a 'Republican talking point', the fact that Democrats have been painted as elitist -- and notice Obama hasn't apologized for it! -- is a major reason why Democrats have lost elections in the past.

Besides, what about Obama using 'Republican talking points' and saying Clinton can't be trusted?

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:08:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

We're arguing in circles then.

Could be, I suppose.

I'm saying that she should not hold back simply because Republicans are using and will be using these same line of attacks.

I think that her repetition of Republican lines of attack do reinforce and give credence to those attacks, and she should be more cautious about that. I agree that some critiques are "public domain" and are fair game for her; but your acknowledgment that this has been a successful R tactic should deter her from using it on another Dem.

As for his apology or lack thereof, I'm glad he hasn't. Frankly, I didn't see it as offensive or elitist in the first place. He's done what I thought he should; stay on message. If he tells people they misunderstood him, he's then susceptible to more charges of arrogance or condescension. He said what he meant, and he meant what he said.

And no, Dems haven't lost elections for being elitist; that's bunk. They've lost them because people haven't seen them as standing up and fighting. People haven't seen Dems as men of principle. I hope Obama holds his ground on this one.

Nos causidicus Obama , ergo nos non suadeo

by rb608 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:24:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

Circle #3: These are not 'Republican lines of attack'. They are lines of attack, period. I can argue that it's a 'Democratic line of attack' because a Democrat is using it. I don't understand this definition you're trying to put on it. So you're saying she shouldn't point to successful Republican campaign tactics as examples of why Democrats have failed in the past?

It's totally legitimate to point to both the substance of the argument, which she has done, as well as the political ramifications of the argument, which she has also done. This isn't a Republican talking point but simply true.

He can apologize or not, we'll see how comfortable he feels about that. I found the comments hugely condescending because he thinks he knows what's best for these people, and seems to think he understands their problems better than they do. I've kept an open mind but his response yesterday at the CNN 'Compassion' forum was particularly galling in that he 'clung' to his comments even more. I hope he gets out of this during the upcoming debate.

And it's pretty clear that a large reason of why Democrats lost in 88, 00, and 04 was because of how they were portrayed as elitist and out of touch, particularly Kerry. If you don't want to believe, fine, but it is what it is.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:36:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

"He can apologize or not, we'll see how comfortable he feels about that. I found the comments hugely condescending because he thinks he knows what's best for these people, and seems to think he understands their problems better than they do."

Either you are naive or disingenuous. Read my diary again. My main point (even though Hillarys hounds come out fighting without reading) is that Hillary almost surely agrees (as she should) with Obama's point.

If you honestly believe that what Obama said is false - then we will just leave it at that...but others have said it (including WJC himself) and will say it again and I honestly believe Hillary is not being truthful here.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:39:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

I don't think I'm naive and I'm certainly not being disingenuous.

Comments Bill Clinton made were about the political campaigns run by the Republicans using "God, guns, and gays" as wedge issues. Which is very different than Obama making the cause-and-effect argument and because people are embittered by their economic status, they cling to their guns and religion.

I did read your diary, thank you, and I did get the point. And yes, I honestly believe that it is condescending to presume why people 'cling' to their faith or why they own guns. But that's me.

"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."

by VAAlex on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:45:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Slippery Slope (none / 0)

Spot on.

"Besides, what about Obama using 'Republican talking points' and saying Clinton can't be trusted?"

Obama has continually opined 'She'll say or do anything to win'.

That's the most republican talking point in the game, and he was the first to sling it.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's happened here? (2.00 / 1)

Has this site finally become a lesser twin of dKos?

"HRCs incessant use of Republican talking points"

Counter attacking Obama (yes, he has been on her case for how many months now?) with his own words is suddenly 'republican talking points'?

And some folks at a campaign stop booed her. Wow, finally the Obama supporters in the crowd show their real class? SO a few folks who were most likely not voting for her in the first place booed her, and you cheer? If the same occurred at an Obama campaign stop, we would have incessant diaries about how racist the culprits are!

Good grief.

Hell's bells, even the GOP didn't have to crucify Eisenhower's record in order to make Reagan their 'saint'. We can have two great ones, you know?

by emsprater on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 02:58:55 PM EST

Re: What's happened here? (none / 0)

Dont comment on this diary without reading it.

I didnt cheer. What I said is that this is starting to bite her in the rear b/c she is trying to make hay out of something that democrats all agree is the truth. Read my diary...follow the links.

I did not cheer it - I am simply stating that this could backfire and in at least 2 cases it already has.

She has forgotten that this is not the GE - and her attacks on a fellow Dem - using McCain talking points - are going to start coming back to haunt.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:52:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wake up! (none / 0)

Wake up. Hillary and McCain are FALSELY attacking a dem for acting 'elite'. Their attacks are not fucking true. If you cant see this - you are blind. Obama has created the most inclusive, least triangulated campaign that this nation has ever seen. I know it doesnt sit well with her...but that is a fact.

This is not just a 'talking point' it is THE talking point of the Republican party from the time of WJC. Hillary should be ashamed for jumping in here. She should have joined Obama (and Carville, and Webb, and WJC) in acknowledging that people are pissed.

Since when are democrats not bitter? And since when is it wrong to point out that some people manage to vote against their own economic interests (i.e., vote Republican) in favor of social issues.

This is the Republicans main talking point she has picked up and those who think that it is ok for her to support McCain's attack IN THIS WAY are lost in their own kool-aid induced cult. Personally, I am finding it harder and harder to even hold my nose when listening to her.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:47:00 PM EST

And talk about condescending... (none / 0)

to act like she 'speaks' for the working class is a slap in the face for those who have had to work for a living and are still not getting by...give me a break.

We don't need a thinker. We need a doer: someone who'll act without considering the consequences. (H.J. Simpson)

by Newcomer on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 04:49:24 PM EST

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